EQ Office’s Lisa Picard on Rebranding, Big Initiatives for 2019, and Lessons to be Learned From the Tech World [Podcast]
When it comes to innovative, pioneering leaders in commercial real estate, it’s hard to find someone more cutting edge than EQ Office President and CEO, and all-round rockstar, Lisa Picard. We recently had the pleasure of welcoming Lisa, into VTS HQ for a conversation with VTS Co-Founder and Senior Advisor, Brandon Weber.
Listen to the full conversation below to hear Lisa and Brandon talk about why EQ Office recently rebranded, the company’s big objectives for 2019, and the lessons CRE leaders can learn from the software industry. You can also read a transcript of their conversation below.
Brandon Weber: So I am excited because I get to sit down with my friend and CEO of a really cool innovative commercial real estate firm, EQ office, Lisa Picard, and it's not often that I get the chance to just have an intimate casual conversation about topics we both find interesting. So Lisa, thank you for joining me for me.
Lisa Picard: Thank you. I mean it's funny, we're called an innovative company, I guess maybe just because we're trying to think differently in a stream that doesn't or traditionally hasn't.
Weber: Yes, amen. Yeah. I want to talk a little bit about innovation and commercial real estate later.
Picard:Which has somewhat been an oxymoron, right?
Weber: Yeah. It's been like the road to nowhere, right? Even over the last five years, a lot of conversation and talk around the word innovative. If you Google it, along with commercial real estate, you see a lot of results. You don't see many results…
Weber: In the business world.
Picard: Just kidding.
Weber: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. And then the irony side of things. So for those who are listening, this is going to be an open conversation. I'm going to ask Lisa some questions. We're going to riff on topics that we find interesting and then, if she's interested, she gets to turn the tables on me and ask me questions about what it's like to be a founder of a technology company and maybe some things that commercial real estate firms can learn from technology companies as we go forward into, I think, a new paradigm of our industry where commercial real estate firms and technology firms are going to start looking a lot more similar than they have before.
Weber: With that, maybe I'll kick it off with something I didn’t get to ask you when we were on stage at our user conference, Accelerate. I think it had happened right as we were doing the fireside. I think it [the news] broke that day. You guys did a major rebrand since we last sat down at Accelerate. You changed the name of the company from Equity Office to EQ Office. Can you talk about the why behind that rebrand? This is obviously a lot more than a beautiful logo and a catchphrase. What does this mean beyond that?
Picard: Yeah. I think fundamentally we recognize that the time that Equity Office Properties existed, EOP existed, the business was highly transactional. It may have been sort of perceived as being a one-sided business where we were looking to honestly fill our buildings with tenants and then address the evaluation component with the capital markets. Now I think just the way that business has changed, our market is a two market customer, and it really hasn't served the needs of the marketplace. We needed to change the mindset of not only our organization but also the perception of our organization's exterior…
Weber: …By the market.
Picard: It's a fairly small change, if you think in terms of letters to the logo, from Equity Office to EQ Office, but a very intentional one based upon the fact that we wanted to really develop our own EQ and we wanted to develop the emotional intelligent relational component of understanding the customer. And I think you and I have had conversations about technology companies and real estate companies being very different in terms of mindset and way of thinking and that still exists today. But I think that the big reason the shift is just the recognition of the shift in our business and also we don't have much of those existing assets from the EOP by Blackstone from 11 years ago. And I think we have one or two remaining in our portfolio.
Weber: So even from a core asset perspective, you're a completely different company…
Weber: …Then you were.
Picard: And our approach to real estate is different. The approach is both you realize that not every customer just wants space at an economical price. In fact, I would say most want space that is going to provide great work, provide for the effectiveness of great work, not just the efficiency and the productivity of work, but the effectiveness of work.
Weber: You have a tagline that I think is — find space for greatness?
Picard: Yes, space for greatness.
Weber: Space for greatness, which I think is a really cool play on words, double entendre. I think it's mental space, intellectual space for greatness, in addition to physical space.
Picard: And self greatness. It's an organization of self greatness. However you want to define it, it's our job to figure out how are you defining it.
Weber: So you think about greatness both at the individual human component — my personal greatness as a person walking into the building — as well as the organization trying to hit business goals and grow in scale.
Picard: And a little bit of my history, having spent some time in hospitality and realizing that the experience is so critical for people and they pay more for the experience. Figuring out what people will pay more for exponentially, makes them feel bigger than who they really are. Makes them feel a part of something, is all about the pathway to success, I think, today in real estate.
Weber: Yes. So, you're now four or five months into this rebrand being logged. How has it influenced the thinking at your company?
Picard: I think that’s a great question. First and foremost, I do believe that once you shift an identity, it's not that suddenly people become that identity. But I do think it helps. I do think that people realize there's something different, whether it's the logo that's worn on their uniform or if it's the way they see the card material. To even just the way we position the website. The website has a complete hospitality feel to it. It's not like a classic office, commercial ownership presence. What I do know, is that because of that talk and because of the reinforcement they've received, our people have received, from the marketplace. Like, “Oh, wow. That was really smart.” Everybody is highly attuned to how they are acting and need to act differently. They're curious too — what are the tools they need to be successful? So, we combined that with a whole new training program. We actually held an EQU— an EQ University.
Weber: Love that. Very interesting.
Picard: And we really taught, can you teach curiosity? Can you teach empathy? Can you teach these things and yes, you can. You actually can. Show them that you can. So, we ran a company-wide training program, EQU, that came out with a playbook. We actually, in fact, planned to release that playbook to the marketplace.
Weber: Open source it?
Picard: Open source it. Just because you believe everybody can benefit from being more in tune with the marketplace. I think the shifts will tell you it takes seven years to change the culture. Certainly, I think you can accelerate if membership is highly passionate about it. And then you give people the tools and the techniques to be successful. Not everybody believes it. Because they've all sort of been working in a world where they've been highly successful, based upon doing the things that they were doing.
Weber: Yeah. I think it's super. I agree I think this rebrand is one of the raw materials for cultural and organizational change. Then there's a bunch of other things, like learning and hiring, probably. There's a lot of DNA that you attract.
Picard: And you will attract. It's amazing just that kind of move and having a kind of humanistic touch to the brand. The types of young people flock to us and want to work for us. Even though we might not have a lot of opportunities currently available for that. It does open up pathways and I see why technology companies are very keen to say the right kind of messaging and vision.
Picard: If landlords are listening to this podcast, to me one of the most powerful things to really internalize, is the power of brand to attract really smart human capital, talent. And to attract customers who want to be associated with that brand. And what's fascinating is most of the commercial real estate industry that I interact with: brokerage, ownership, property management. If you ask them to articulate their brand, it's just not even a question that they've answered.
Picard: They'll talk about, well, here's our mission statement. But it's not in the second half of that, almost never do I hear a brand that's about solving a problem for humans. Which is fascinating to me, too. I think the interesting thing when I first got into this business and especially before I went and joined Canyon Ranch. A sort of hospitality company right, but certainly has amazing brand recognition. But, they have this thing that they were able to sell condo units at 2X the apartments next to them. And it was, what is going on here? I need to understand what's really…
Weber: What's driving that?
Picard: Because it's driving this unbelievable amount of dollars.
Weber: That price elasticity, effectively.
Picard: And when I got close to it, I could definitely see the perception of what the customer believed emotionally, evocatively what they got. In fact, with Canyon Ranch, it was like this is going to save my life. So, people will spend an inordinate amount of money to save their life. But it was just the difference of why you pay more for, let's say, Dolce Gabbana glasses versus Costco. Right? It's just because of how it makes you feel.
Picard: The whole notion about a brand, is the emotional and provocative piece about how a consumer's going feel being associated or an employee is going feel being associated with what you are doing and what you are about. And the real estate community, particularly in office, understands reputation. They don't understand the brand. They don't understand creating an emotional, evocative piece because we haven't really been attached to the customer as marketplace, occupier, tenant. We've been attached to the customer as a lender financier. And right now, it's really interesting. The value component is really being driven by that other side of the market. We have a two-sided market. I think we forget it's two-sided. Or we haven't actually had to address the other side of that, probably.
Weber: Yeah. Super interesting. You said something that I think I want to double click on, which is experience drives revenue and price. They said the value. They're paying more for experience is actually what you said. What are some concrete examples that you're seeing in the work that you guys are doing? Maybe you can just expand it.
Picard: I would also say convenience is an experience. Experience, we're seeing it in retail for sure. From a retail perspective, you've got to be purely in experience or convenience, that is you've got to be experience or a box. Otherwise, you don't exist. I think as it relates to the commercial real estate and office experience, right now, I would say the way in which we use the building to create office space was really our corporate identity. And so, it was really about the experience of the CEO. How quick was it from executive housing? How much did it say about sort of the strength and the power of this organization is how grand and big the lobby was. Now, from an experience perspective, I want to know that I'm a part of a community. I want to know that I'm part of a big idea. I'm going to be spending an inordinate amount of my time at home, at work, at play, thinking about what this organization is doing from a work perspective. That I want to know I’m in line with what it's doing. Because then I give 10X. I don't just give .5X or .75X of my time. I'm not one of those partially committed employees. I'm over-committed. And so part of that is, we as office owners have to really think about the processional.
Weber: Processional? What's that?
Picard: We call it sort of the recruiting processional. It is the feel and the flavor of the building from the moment on the curb. Some people say from street to seat, but it's really a whole experience and what is it saying about me and what is it saying about where I work and who I work with that makes me feel good about being here? And therefore, that’s a big piece of the attraction. That's a big piece of the retention and that is experiential. So, then the other piece is if you unpack that a little bit on the experiential. We love the flexibility, we love options, we love optionality and how we've worked. And so this whole notion about the open workplace's data. Open floor plan's data. I laugh because I'm actually writing a piece on this which is really like saying, apples will kill you. If you eat a diet exclusively of apples, it will eventually kill you. Meaning fruitarians are killing me right now, probably hating me right now.
My point is that you need a balanced diet in the workplace. You need places for concentration, you need places for collaboration, and you need places for community and connection. You need all three. That's a balanced diet and so experientially driven into the office environment is you've got to have those three in balance. And it's got to, just like the pair of designer sunglasses, make people feel differently about themselves because that psychology contributes to really effective work.
Weber: Yeah, I think a big idea there, is one of the big ideas, is that historically the experienced landlords were focused on optimizing for the CEO corporate identity experience. Now it's moving to the human experience. The employee experiences. What role do the building and the landlord's brand play in elevating the tenant, the customer's brand with their customers and their employees? So I think it's interesting. Historically, just a thing that isn’t thought about on the relationship side.
Picard: I just think the nature of work has shifted.
Weber: It has.
Picard: Mostly in terms of the fact you've got all of these different VC-backed organizations that are focused on the customer, introducing new products, challenging old mind businesses. Challenging new line businesses and that is forcing everybody to change their model rapidly. If you don't, you're going to be caught off guard.
Picard: Part of that is do you continue to have the right talent? Part of that is, I've actually seen, the migration of what's important, in terms of a measure for business? Back in the day, World War II, or whatever. How many widgets can you punch out of the factory? How efficient is your factory? All these mechanisms of efficiency kinda came in, called silos. Oh look, you're really good at this. You're going to punch these out for 10 hours a day, whatever and these siloed everybody. Then, when we realize, the market's changing so fast. By the time that product reaches the finish line, it's already obsolete. So, what we've needed to do is then, break the silos. You've heard of that consistently, break the silos, because we need the agility to morph the product in response to the marketplace. Because if we just production line it and have an efficiency statement, it's not going work. And so, the workplace hasn't changed for the model of efficiency of siloed offices to measures of the efficiency of how many heads per floor. It hasn't migrated to this path of how effective is this space? And creating ideas, fostering the talent to shift the product, to be successful.
Weber: Yeah. It's interesting because it feels really good. From VTS' perspective, we have been big on this pivot from a building or a property-focused industry to a customer-experience-focused industry – it was the theme of our Accelerate conference. I think we're making a massive product bet on tenant relationship management. And effectively becoming the software layer that connects landlords to their customers. And I think it's still early days but the aha moments that we're seeing when disparate members of the landlord organization are talking about the disparate experiences. The one tenant who’s got locations all over the country – it’s having and then synthesizing that into an asset management strategy, which is like, okay, we need to have a deeper conversation with this tenant, maybe about growth opportunities together. Or maybe it's to get in front of a bunch of potentially bad news and attrition in the building. We're just getting started on the idea that in order to achieve a customer experience orientation, you need to instrument that feedback loop between yourself and the customer.
Picard: You also have to have a client that uses it.
Picard: I just came from a meeting with a lot of people in the real estate industry. There's a whole discussion about the flex market and coworking flex market. Viewing some of these folks as competitors and then what do you do to combat the competitors? I just sat back and I went, this is super interesting. This is the classic way in which legacy industries think about their business. Which is like let's survey the competition and then just go find the white spaces on it. As opposed to, what a technology company does, is looks at their marketplace and says "There's a problem? There's a customer not being served. I'm going to go after that."
Weber: Yeah, that's a good point.
Picard: The fact of the matter is when you look at our marketplace and we realize there is unbelievable opportunity to satisfy a market that's not being satisfied. It's mind-boggling.
Weber: When you think about it, now, it's a zero-sum game. But as a truly expansive market opportunity, there could be many orders. An order of magnitude larger than we traditionally see as rent-paying, office tendency, or something like that. It changes the way that you think about strategy. That is a good segway. I want to actually talk about strategy before we get into some data questions. We're thinking a lot about our strategy as a company as we go into Q4. As we go into 2019, we're trying to step back as an organization, assess strengths, weaknesses, opportunities, threats, et cetera. I'm curious. How do you get your executive team in this mindset around planning and big thinking? The second half of that question is, what are some of the strategic projects that you're trying to push for in 2019?
Picard: I think the way that I get my management team in strategic thinking is we're always having striking conversations. We're always elevating…
Weber: Always be strategy.
Picard: Yeah, always be strategy. We're always elevating tensions that exist within our business and it's having a take. You always have to have a point of view. I think so many people in our business just serve up information. Serve up data. Without really saying, what does this mean? And so, by the very fact that my CFO or my COO might have a take on something that I differ with. When I differ with it and there's this tension of the conversation, it elevates a whole new level of thinking. That's purely what collaboration does. But if you don't have a management team that's working with you on that, all the time, you're not going to surface up, new idea tactics to deal with the things that are surfacing within your organization.
Weber: How do you support that? Just on an operational level.
Picard: I feel it.
Weber: What does that mean in terms of on a bi-weekly basis? How are you surfacing those tensions?
Picard: So, for example, I might be meeting with the CEO of a technology company. There's a way in which they are thinking about their technology that is very interesting to me because the way they're addressing the market is the same way we need to think about our market. I could literally be talking about, for example, a lot of news in New York. And WeWork, everybody says, "I don't understand the valuation. The valuations will never get there." Someone from my management team might say that or here's another ridiculous article. I might post an early article from Amazon selling books in 2000. It said, yeah, this business model didn't make a lot of sense, either. But when you're overcapitalizing, you have a lot of money, they can play out in a certain way. The key in this question is they've been absolutely, 100% focused on the customer. That's the space we need to claim.
Weber: You play contrarian.
Picard: I not only play contrarian, but I'd also say, what does this mean? Then, what does this mean for us? I literally think the role of an executive is to continue to up the mind game about what spaces you're playing in. And then challenge the assumptions that people are resting upon, because honestly, the brain has to use energy to change assumptions because using the same assumptions, saves the signature in the brain. That is the tendency for people to do. I think that's a key thing as a leader, to keep facilitating the thought process and allocating it.
Weber: Do you create space on a regular basis in the boardroom, in the executive team session to have those debates?
Picard: We have had a regular catch up calls and part of it is stats and updating. Then another part of it is looking at a road map. We've had to manage ourselves like a tech company from that standpoint. We constantly have to review our strategies and then think about what are we doing perfect those strategies or execute on those strategies?
Picard: We had a discussion around the road map and then thought about if this element was still desired by a marketplace? Or is it something that we just feel like we want to do? And constantly challenging and testing it and then retooling it. Some stuff we've moved off the road map because we realize that it’s actually lower priority.
Picard: A lot of this is from conversations with our customers. I've learned from them about how they're managing a business. Just as much as you've got to talk to your customers so you know how to tool your product. And I just don't think that's a conversation that people in my industry have done.
Weber: Or are used to having. Yeah, definitely. Do you, when you look out a year or two, what are some of the big projects you're really trying to rollout, strategically for the business? Looking out to 2019.
Picard: How to move faster? That's probably the biggest thing, is how to move faster?
Weber: In what area of the business?
Picard: I do believe the productization of the real estate, the productization of the office product per se, traditionally has been the term lease. We've actually got to develop different products that resonate with the marketplace because that one product that resonates with one segment of the marketplace and I think the growth in those, in particular products that the customer values more and is willing to pay more for, is huge. And is certainly within our capability to do so. That market is huge and we're not moving fast enough on it.
Weber: It's huge. Yeah, okay. So speed to market on new products and how you deliver space.
Picard: Yeah. I think for other property owners or other asset owners, that might just sound like, "What did she just say?" Because we have a product that's an office building. I think it's a platform through office buildings, a platform. There are many products you can sell. You can utilize and you can monetize from it. If you don't, someone else will.
Weber: Yeah, totally. On the product note, one of the things that have been getting a lot of buzz, recently, is the notion of tenant engagement applications. And then the notion of an entirely new market, another product, which is monetizing the tenant engagement in the buildings, right. In ads, supporting tenant consumption. Whether it's services, shoe shines, food, et cetera, and the landlord is the owner of the platform, being the box and the tenant relationships. Is that a new product that's going to be really exciting? What's your current point of view on that?
Picard: I think it's a very necessary tool and sort of the product piece in it is, in my mind, yet to be determined because part of that, to be effective, has to be seamless. I think maybe the best example I think about is Clear at the airports. If you're a Clear member, you put your fingers, your biometrics on a device, it goes into a cloud. Somebody obviously has those files, they clearly have the data about where you're going and where you are, but I'm willing to give them all that for the benefit of getting on the other side of that line faster than anybody else. I think landlords if they're going to begin to bring people into the system and expect them to give up information, we've got to give them something. So, this can't be about a landlord, "Oh, gimme, gimme, gimme, I want data," and then you're going to monetize it. You have to think about from a consumer perspective, what am I going to give them? How am I going to get that time? What is important to the consumer? Otherwise, it's…
Weber: It's not a fair trade.
Picard: …It's not a fair trade, it's not going to work.
Weber: Yeah. It's not going to work.
Picard: I do think that there is uncharted landscape in there and you definitely have to focus on how you're going to meet the demands and requirements of the user and how you're going to make life easier? How are you going to make, or give back, time?
Weber: Totally agree. I think it's going to be really fascinating next year. I'm very curious to see what emerges under the strategic pillar of user experience and customer experience from a service and technology standpoint. From a landlord's taking a leadership position. The products that they deliver. When you think about, maybe shifting gears a little bit, into data and technology and then we can get into how to think like a tech company, which I think is pretty interesting. Where specifically does technology and data sit in your 2019 plans? Maybe you can bring that to life a little bit. What are some of the things you're trying to accomplish with data and technology in 2019?
Picard: Well, first off, when I think about data and technology, well, technology's a tool. It's really about further expending the strategy and utilizing technology to get there faster and to essentially be more effective. Then, technology affords you the ability to bring in data and then I think that for 2019, there are all of these correlations and connections we are currently making. I can get into this from a real estate perspective and this might be treading on some territory. But, if you think about the real estate product in the office — and we have vacancies happening all the time in the office building. You know when they occur, they're in your data and the VTS platform.
And yet, there's this inventory that becomes available and the minute it becomes available, actually before it becomes available, we know it's on the truck getting shipped to our plant as raw material. And the aging of that inventory, in many cases, you have no idea the aging of the inventory after it's already vacant. It could have been vacant for three years. We have no idea that it's sitting there as an inventory and a management tool to manage the teams and how effective are those teams in their inventory cycle? In terms of turning it over, monetizing it, figuring out what the market wants in delivering it. That is just like white space between sort of VTS and Honest buildings. Because there's a whole sort of pricing and costing that…
Weber: On the capital side.
Picard: …On the capital side. That is just wasted dollars because every consumer product company in the world has an inventory agent.
Picard: We don't have that metric.
Picard: That's kind of an area in these spaces between where we're getting good on data and then there's this opportunity to optimize the portfolio. Then, there's this whole other area. I call that the fundamentals of real estate. That's one aspect of the strategy. There's another aspect of the strategy, which is involving the office products and I do believe a customer engagement platform. And then also better data about what's happening in markets. Whether it be a housing development. Housing growth or particular types of individuals and where they're migrating to that influence office value.
Weber: Micro demographics?
Picard: Yeah, all that stuff I think is our charter territory for 2019. How do we put it into a form that's actually usable for teams to act on. And again, all that stuff, all that data, when you start to layer internal with external data allows you to develop a really strong point of view that reinforces investment decisions.
Weber: Yeah, super interesting. That is where my beat is at, as I think about our technology strategy. I think we're going to have some really exciting news on the inventory aging side of things in 2019. It's really about, we need to instrument a little bit more of the inventory life cycle of every single space. Time-stamped data points. At one point was this space shell? At what point was this space market-ready? At what point was this space leased? At what point was this space put on the market? All of those data points. With the North Star being that we need to give the industry its first true days on market, or inventory aging, metric. It's really battle-tested.
We're getting close. What's really interesting is watching the industry react to a market that I think we've brought to the industry for the first time, which is leasing velocity. How long does it take a landlord to close a deal? And it is now, in BI, it's freaking cool because you can stack a 100 buildings and look at your top 10 and your bottom 10 percentile and go, "What is driving leasing velocity in the top 10 percentile that we can go apply to the bottom 10 percent?" It could be market factors. And then we think that's really what BI is starting to unlock. It's truly the CEO-level instrumentation of the key metrics and I think we still have work to do to identify and then instrument the top two or three revenue, supply and demand metrics. I think inventory aging is a holy grail, which I think is just so fascinating.
Picard: This was an interesting question for you, but how do you find those leaders and executives who know how to use it?
Weber: It's finding influencers, but here's what I would say. What we have learned is — through our customer advisory board — when you talk about business problems and business outcomes. Our customers are freaking experts at that. They just latch onto that. We care about understanding how long a vacant piece, an available piece of space sits on the market and we want to improve that metric. There's massive alignment around the table. Like fist on the table. How do we get there? Then, the next question is tech. How do we instrument that? What do we need our customers to actually drive from a process and behavior standpoint in the organization in order to receive the data.
Picard: It was like you need a culture shift also in these organizations to apply it.
Weber: What I find is that we have over 700 landlords on the platform, now. The culture shifts are happening when you start with that, what? They're like the CEO's, "I need that." So, what do I need to do? What whips do I need to crack? What carrots do I need to throw into the organization to do it? What's interesting about this, so that's the kind of things BI will unlock for your organization. Then, MarketView is the market contact state, a layer that sits on top of that.
Picard: We've all been waiting for it.
Weber: Which we've all been waiting for. I've got a question for you. So, we're hard at work on MarketView. There's a lot of hard problems to solve, but we're making really good progress. As you think about what we're doing and how we’re going into 2019. You sit on our customer advisory board. You've got a strong point of view on how data's going to change the way commercial real estate operates. What do you want to see from MarketView? From the standpoint of outcomes-driven to your organization next year. What are some of the high points you want to see out of the product?
Picard: I think MarketView has this ability to provide transparency and momentum, that was held close to the vest with a lot of people who were seeing transactional volume. I can see that if there's this pricing momentum, that you can see that it would help influence everybody's decisions and maybe a little bit more movement. And activity in the marketplace. Because I think the lack of information, that the control of information, has made it a little lopsided and as an owner, I can say well, the lack of information has mostly benefited owners in the past. But I also can see where it's also benefited tenants. So, I do think that when you provide that information and markets get more efficient, and truly the people will be focused on how do I just provide a great service for the marketplace as opposed to how do I…
Weber: Game a system, yeah.
Picard: Yeah, I think we sit on a lot of real estate, so just in my own position I can see the ebbs and flows of stuff in the market. In which markets are kinda performing and why. We can develop hypotheses around that, but I think it just goes so much deeper by having the momentum arrows a little bit more clearly defined with MarketView.
Weber: We've got a fascinating chart that basically looks at the volatility index for our market. Which is really fascinating. It's a combination. It looks at forward looking lease expiration volume. Forward looking expiring rents. And then demand in that marketplace. We're trying to figure out a way to deliver that context, in a way that doesn't make people's heads explode. You don't need to be a PhD statistician to go, "I get what's going on."
Picard: Well, the classic thing you could say is the leasing spreads that are happening and so you instantly see how much value is coming to a market.
Picard: Based upon, and I don't know if that's volatility, but the market’s known leasing spreads. So that each one's saying, "Here's the potential increase and the leap in rents that are going to happen." Based upon the spaces.
Weber: Yeah, so we're getting there and early returns are super exciting. We basically deconstructed the deal.
Picard: So, when is it coming out Brandon?
Weber: We are going to …
Picard: I put you on the spot.
Weber: Our big goal was to get into Beta by the end of the year. So, I think, again, this is actually a super important element of being agile, which is go into a Beta knowing that you have to learn. And knowing that the learnings will influence the product, delivery data, et cetera.
Picard: That's what a data company does. You put a product out there and then you work with your best customers to tweak it.
Weber: Yeah. So, we're excited to get you guys involved and some other folks, now, as we're building around it. Lisa, thank you so much for taking the time. That was fun.
Picard: My pleasure.
Weber: I'm hoping this is the first of many conversations like this. You down for that?
Picard: Yeah, for sure.
Picard: You're on the other side of the mike next time.
Weber: Heck, yeah. Always. Awesome. Well, that's a wrap for our first conversation.